Why publishing is more political than ever – with Melissa Fleming & Gvantsa Jobava | LIVE at #fbm26

00:00:00: Welcome to.

00:00:02: On The Books presented by Publishers Perspectives and Remote Daily, on the Book System Warning Show for the global publishing community.

00:00:10: coming to you live from Frankfurt-Buchmesse.

00:00:12: And I don't say this lightly.

00:00:13: it is very early.

00:00:15: people are just setting up their booths here and we're here with coffee and water an amazing guest who feature highlights that happening inside and have these irresistible from the community joining us in this studio.

00:00:28: I'm Felix Altner, founder of Remote Daily

00:00:30: and I am Erin Cox, publisher for Publishing Perspectives.

00:00:32: Good morning Erin!

00:00:34: And today with us in a Studio we welcome two global citizens that have really a global bird's-eye view on the publishing industry.

00:00:45: The Undersecretary General for Global Communications, for United Nations, Melissa Flamme.

00:00:50: Welcome!

00:00:50: Great to be

00:00:51: with you Felix Neren and of course Kvansa.

00:00:54: Yes, the President of International Publishers Association And Head of International Affairs at Intellect Publishing, Kvansage Baba welcome.

00:01:02: Good morning.

00:01:05: How are you doing?

00:01:06: On this first Morning Of Book Fair?

00:01:09: answer?

00:01:10: Well, wonderful.

00:01:11: Very excited because for me being in Frankfurt or coming back to Frankfurt is just becoming a home.

00:01:18: I feel like that always Because it has been forever when we are coming and i think this place is the best place for gathering, producing industry And people who love books.

00:01:29: so It's such an exciting moment To come here.

00:01:33: How

00:01:34: many years have you

00:01:35: been coming?

00:01:36: Probably fifteen years.

00:01:39: That's about where are you at,

00:01:40: right?

00:01:41: Yeah I think i'm

00:01:41: seventeen.

00:01:42: Okay

00:01:42: not

00:01:43: bragging it all!

00:01:45: And Melissa is like that for you mean coming home and so weird to say we're on fairgrounds just large halls but feel like home.

00:01:53: Well in a way its little bit... quite belong here in the United Nation, and yet we do.

00:02:00: We have a UN stand here.

00:02:02: so...we do have a home here and we do have publishing at the

00:02:05: U.N.,

00:02:06: but I also feel like um ...at-home because i've seen so many nationalities that just came into Espan and I heard at least five different languages!

00:02:16: And it is really an international place in the middle of Germany.

00:02:22: Um..and the span of books uh....it just makes me happy to see to be in an environment where there's so much knowledge at a time when our information ecosystem is really suffering.

00:02:38: That's true.

00:02:38: And that is something we have all seen each other

00:02:42: around the world

00:02:43: a lot this year and I think it was great moment to talk about.

00:02:47: so you've been over the world, talked to publishers in different societies.

00:02:56: if you can boil down where international publishing sits what does perception of where we are in international publishing, and maybe one or two sentences each.

00:03:07: What do you

00:03:08: think?

00:03:09: Vance?

00:03:09: Well the biggest topic nowadays it's of course artificial intelligence.

00:03:14: wherever I go wherever i travel everyone interested about AI And that is our topics which are discussed on the panel discussion sessions speeches everywhere.

00:03:26: And this is a big issue, of course.

00:03:28: Because our association has two main pillars which are copyright and freedom to publish... ...and the copyright matters for publishers A lot!

00:03:38: We see these challenging times when we see that big AI companies aren't respecting their copyrights.

00:03:46: They use pirate copies spread over the internet to train their machines.

00:03:52: And so this is a big moment for publishers when we are fighting, to make them preserve our rights, license our rights and to respect us in our work because it's huge work of a lot of publishers, editors, writers who are involved.

00:04:11: We see that they see value books as well.

00:04:18: But if they need our books, it needs to be licensed.

00:04:22: It's needed to be respected.

00:04:23: so we hope that the development in near future will achieve that AI companies start respecting copyright and very quickly.

00:04:34: another big issue of course is freedom to publish because where democracy is declining everywhere, the freedom of expression.

00:04:44: Freedom to publish also is not respected and we see a lot of publishers suffering because of these reasons.

00:04:51: And this is also huge issue which matters for IPA For each publisher I think Because if you don't have freedom To publish whatever We want and say Whatever we wanted Write what we want write.

00:05:04: Then our working on honest fear.

00:05:07: So we need to preserve its values

00:05:09: Absolutely.

00:05:10: And I think it's so important too because you both are from... international global organizations.

00:05:16: And I think sometimes, I come from the United States and we very much focus on what's happening in the US states don't necessarily look beyond our borders or thinking about how to work with our counterparts of other countries.

00:05:28: so those are global missions that both you're focusing on is important for everyone to be aligned.

00:05:41: comment because I completely agree with what Gvansa said and it's a huge concern to us at the start from the freedom of expression part.

00:05:52: The decline, let's say that rise of autocracies in this line is extremely concerning that we are speaking out about and we need alliances, so pleased to work together with IPA.

00:06:14: And really demand the right freedom-to-publish.

00:06:20: I love it's just so simple but you know if its' really a freedom to express oneself in whatever medium troubling ways affecting journalism, but also we're looking at the wider information ecosystem.

00:06:43: The effects of AI on this ecosystem and there is a horse in publishing exactly how.

00:06:50: I want to repeat that.

00:06:51: completely agree with everything she said about concerns over copyright just scraping pillaging and training.

00:07:07: And then you read article after article of authors who all of a sudden find next to their page on Amazon suddenly, A New Book with Their Name is the author!

00:07:18: It's just.

00:07:19: it's a crazy world out there...and its really affecting our information environment.

00:07:24: because we need it need to understand who is the author and though in inauthentic writers are flooding the ecosystem.

00:07:35: In books also, in journalism fake science studies all kinds of things do kind of lead us astray so that overall information environment has become corrupted.

00:07:50: What we need here is the antidote.

00:07:52: Book fairs like these speak with people really speaking out, We saw this at the opening yesterday.

00:08:00: You know maybe it's.

00:08:02: It's a time when you will not just come together to try and sell books but Will come together And demand rights Rights To publish Demands for compensation.

00:08:18: What struck you most about the opening yesterday?

00:08:21: what struck me was that it Was a political Atmosphere, it wasn't only About a celebration of books and book publishing.

00:08:33: It was a marriage Of The cultural in the political.

00:08:37: it was A statement that the two cannot be separated.

00:08:42: Interesting.

00:08:43: I mean your podcast to yourself Melissa And your podcast is called awake at night And I think it's such a great title because you speak to people, colleagues all around the world that are in super difficult situations and talk about their freedom.

00:09:00: Sometimes when i think of this podcast what keeps Melissa up at night?

00:09:04: What is something... If we make just what you describe more personal like your three in the morning how can tackled this like out to many, many things that you're experiencing as a podcaster with your colleagues around the world working at The UN.

00:09:20: What is the thing that does it?

00:09:22: As a leader right now want to really tackle personally because everything seems so big and overwhelming.

00:09:28: I mean i guess what hits my heart the most Because I worked for a long time as a humanitarian Is all of the suffering.

00:09:35: we have more wars than any Time since World War two Luckily, not World Wars and hopefully still never again.

00:09:44: But these are wars that are causing immense suffering, immense displacement, immense death And it's just frustrating to see they're so senseless.

00:09:59: In the last couple of years funding has been pretty much halved or even more for humanitarian organizations who have been working on the front lines to try and save people's lives.

00:10:13: People are actually dying because of this, we can't count.

00:10:20: but by the thousands if not more.

00:10:23: it is just so short-sighted also cruel.

00:10:26: This keeps me awake at night.

00:10:28: I say that were really doing everything we could fundraise countries but also different types of donors to come in and step-in where the US cuts, in particular have really hurt most.

00:10:42: The organization I worked for ten years UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency has had to let go almost eight thousand staff.

00:10:51: you know all of a sudden that's just one.

00:10:53: so thats what keeps me awake at night.

00:10:54: But i have say professionally it is our information environment And It Is The Effects Of AI on our information landscape.

00:11:05: And for you, Kwanzaa how's that personally?

00:11:07: What is the thing that youth think about at night that they want to tackle personally where like out of these many crises we're in?

00:11:15: this may be something I can make a change.

00:11:21: Don't sleep quite a long time already Because of various reasons because for instance My own situation in my country where I live and I leave actually very close to the world on because Georgia is very closer To Ukraine And not so, I mean territorially but it affects us.

00:11:43: It matters for us because we feel like allies to Ukraine for the live book fear, like in September.

00:11:55: And well we see that who sees at the books are burning in our set century because of Russian attacks.

00:12:05: during this summer more than ten million popes in Ukraine were destroyed and burned And even yesterday, we heard from the stage that Henry Hynes is this famous quote.

00:12:18: That when they burned books it will burn humans as well.

00:12:22: now here in everywhere and people are...

00:12:24: Frankfurt's mayor Mike Joseph said

00:12:28: exactly because this has come back We see that people are burning and we see that the books are burning much connected to each other.

00:12:39: So yeah, this worries me of course as a publisher and the president of The Publishers Association because it's not... And also is not only Ukraine.

00:12:49: we see publishers suffering everywhere!

00:12:52: We have our very important Free Voltaire Award which acknowledges their publishers for their sacrifices in freedom-to-publish for instance, whose bookshops were destroyed because of bombing and so many other terrible stories around us happening.

00:13:13: And you know yeah this doesn't make me sleep at all!

00:13:18: Because we see... We think every day where this is taking us?

00:13:23: Where are we heading?

00:13:25: Where the world is

00:13:26: heading?!

00:13:27: Because it can be decided as Melisa said.

00:13:31: yesterday we saw that politics and culture is standing really together because it can't be divided.

00:13:39: And actually, culture has a huge role in the politics and it should have but with propaganda.

00:13:45: what here?

00:13:46: as if it's a shame?

00:13:48: It isn't a shame!

00:13:49: But this how it should be... Because people of cultures who are writing books and publishing books are trusted people by the society, our readers.

00:14:02: And we need to tell them real stories.

00:14:04: We need to talk about truth in a world where we're living but it can't be done without politics.

00:14:12: If you care how people... Melissa was talking about humanitarian situation.

00:14:19: if you care about peoples' lives the books are writing about people suffering, then this is all politics.

00:14:26: how it can be without that.

00:14:28: Yeah and I also want to comment on yesterday's opening.

00:14:33: It was amazing i think And especially of course last part when we see celebration freedom expression of the writers, because it's not easy.

00:14:47: I know how it works and It is not easy to go in front of your officials being on the first row And talk with them face-to-face Telling you that

00:14:59: this

00:14:59: is absolutely right.

00:15:02: The ministers are coming and going and the literature

00:15:07: is changed.

00:15:08: I think it was the first sentence Yes.

00:15:12: Being said by the author from Jetsja, and you know what gives me hope being here?

00:15:19: And sitting here with you and listening to your knowing that you're out there in a world doing these things... I was just talking to someone on Book Fair team last night asked What are their numbers like?

00:15:31: they never knew at first.

00:15:32: but he said There's more professionals this year Coming to the fit and last year knows like.

00:15:37: that makes me so happy because it means that this industry if that has So many challenges we just heard about them is coming.

00:15:45: And

00:15:46: more than

00:15:47: yes still still thriving with everything That's going on

00:15:52: as you said sort of doubling down saying, you know We need to now Stand up and say This is the truth, this is not fake news.

00:16:03: Something that can be verified and proved.

00:16:05: It's going to stand a test of time for culture or information but we together are all sharing it as an industry in some cases hand-in-hand with politics.

00:16:22: Yeah, I actually wonder about that because you're sort of the UN publishing in way.

00:16:29: Is there something you are doing together?

00:16:31: That people should know about a UN IPA collaboration?

00:16:36: Of

00:16:38: course!

00:16:40: Our cooperation with UN is broadening every year and we really very happy about this.

00:16:48: What needs to be mentioned it's our SDG Publishers Compact and the SDG Book Club, which makes us very proud to be doing

00:17:01: these... The Sustainable Development Goals.

00:17:03: for those of you who didn't

00:17:04: know.

00:17:05: Maybe Melissa will explain more about this sustainable development goals?

00:17:10: Of course we are opening book clubs in so many parts of the world, so many new countries willing to join, and we have these conversations.

00:17:20: And we have a common ground of fighting against mis-and disinformation.

00:17:26: Of course it makes us very happy that this is really important in the publishing industry.

00:17:34: this important word.

00:17:35: but I also, on one line will mention our new cooperation with UN Beeman for gender equality.

00:17:45: Last year we signed TMOU and actually it's not a secret anymore that during the book fair Friday we'll launch the Gender Equality pledge as well.

00:17:56: so yeah!

00:17:56: We have lots of connections and links to you and we are very

00:18:01: proud about them.

00:18:02: Would you like to add

00:18:02: anything?

00:18:03: I would just like again, this freedom-to-publish part.

00:18:06: It's really entrenched also in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and it is also entrenched in our UN-lobable principles on information integrity.

00:18:19: so while we want the tech platforms do their part at the same time to do their part and allow people express themselves freely.

00:18:32: We also believe in this digital ecosystem.

00:18:36: we have to live, fight for our space, rights or integrity but it's not freedom of expression when a female author is attacked online saying female politicians and female authors or female activists because they are disproportionately silenced.

00:19:03: I mean, it's really called the chilling.

00:19:04: So you know It is not only that we're struggling with authoritarian governments who in general are cracking down on critics And these come often as a form of authors or journalists but also essentially female journalists and female authors.

00:19:25: And that's why we're really thrilled to be working together with UN Women, and IPA To lift the voices...to provide a boost for women writers.

00:19:36: I think it is important they feel this international support when they are under attack.

00:19:43: Yeah i would also like add one detail about UN Women cooperation.

00:19:49: we thought that this is so important, from my experience to traveling in many places.

00:19:58: In general, these industries run by females.

00:20:02: and where's the problem?

00:20:03: You look around – females are everywhere!

00:20:07: And they're actually doing most of their job at publishing industry but in many parts of the world or countries it really is quite different.

00:20:17: I mean yes Women are everywhere, but they're not on senior positions.

00:20:23: They aren't the CEOs or main persons around a table and my feeling actually sometimes is that I was going to some countries And i found myself only female in this stage during the book fair opening.

00:20:47: Yeah, so then we will go for the joint picture on this stage and I'm standing only one female.

00:20:56: So that's reality though!

00:21:00: We shouldn't judge from what you see but behind these are a lot of stories about females are not given the opportunity to have the roles they deserve.

00:21:12: We're not asking anything what we don't deserve, but we deserve.

00:21:16: and if you say that females everywhere in this industry... This means that females deserve to be leading

00:21:26: the industry as

00:21:26: well.

00:21:27: Absolutely!

00:21:28: And I think it takes some dedication to do that.

00:21:31: That's a shame of us because women often aren't given the role

00:21:38: Absolutely.

00:21:39: There's no space given, and that is something it requires to force a hand or make the change possible in many ways.

00:21:50: so I think such an important thing.

00:21:52: obviously when I feel very strongly about.

00:21:56: but even in United States you look at CEOs on top of big five then they are all men.

00:22:07: Well, I have to say we...I had a male boss who was the Secretary General of United Nations and when he was elected about ten years ago.

00:22:16: He apologized for his gender.

00:22:18: We said that can't change it.

00:22:19: but one thing i will change is that we'll reach gender parity in the UN system.

00:22:25: so at all levels gender parity.

00:22:28: And so there are men also who can help bring about this change and it really does have an effect on women.

00:22:35: feel empowered, you know?

00:22:39: It reflects out to the rest of the world.

00:22:41: if The United Nations can do that then so could the rest Of the World.

00:22:44: Yes!

00:22:45: And a lot of homework for the man shouldn't be all underwomen too You know... To lead.

00:22:51: I think That's very good thing.

00:22:53: he did some.

00:22:55: He is true feminist

00:22:56: And the succession is happening?

00:23:00: Yes, well.

00:23:01: The election campaign's happening now and hopefully we'll learn in the next month or two who the next Secretary General will be... Or she...?

00:23:10: We're very much hoping that it is a woman—it's about time!

00:23:13: In the eighties history of the UN there has never been any women.

00:23:17: There are very good female candidates and anyone one would be excellent at doing this job.

00:23:26: So you're hopeful?

00:23:28: Yeah, I mean.

00:23:30: You know we've all expressed the hope and it's not just us We the staff or even the secretary general hopes that his successor could be a woman.

00:23:41: It is actually your feeling.

00:23:43: that kind of global population calling for this there is.

00:23:48: There is quite quite a push but yeah The decision lies with the Security Council first and foremost geopolitics these days, it's very cloudy so we'll see when the powers that be decide.

00:24:05: Fingers crossed!

00:24:06: I mean i'm also thinking about you Juanza because this is how do you call does your finale as president or your victory lap in Frankfurt?

00:24:16: Oh, yeah.

00:24:16: It's emotional!

00:24:18: Very emotional because it has been for years a year as vice president to years of President and that was wonderful journey I should say in many reasons.

00:24:29: Of course it was wonderful experience And the network which i achieved To create during this time is just amazing.

00:24:41: Yeah, I felt very lucky to be on this position.

00:24:45: It was important for me from my country as well and This is something also about IPA's diversity that I'm the youngest president ever during one hundred thirty years First Georgian President.

00:25:01: it never happened in our history before.

00:25:04: so yeah I was really grateful that these publishers trusted me, our members trusted this job.

00:25:14: A person from a very small country and for my country which is not in its best shape right now terms of democracy because we see also in my country authoritarianism rising.

00:25:27: Well, this was actually in both ways a big challenge and also inspiration for me to do things better.

00:25:33: And uh...to show you know in practice too my members who are well maybe facing more difficult circumstances but also that even in this situation we can remain as faithful publishers into our jobs to preserve the values of our profession.

00:26:01: So yeah, it was amazing!

00:26:03: It's a little bit difficult as well but I hope that I paid the trust from my members.

00:26:10: so...

00:26:12: Can i ask you about your publishing job?

00:26:16: Your day-to-day job back in Georgia and what is next for?

00:26:21: Oh, we'll see.

00:26:24: Well I will stay in the publishing of course for sure.

00:26:30: and also i say that IPA is not my past it's a future as well because I'm planning to stay close um... Because I am NOT on uh.. In The Publishing because Of Any Position!

00:26:46: because it was my dream job, always.

00:26:49: My profession is also publishing work from the university and you know for me being in this field then in this industry It's something...it's all about values And its' all about importance of these works.

00:27:09: I feel that with them i can be useful to society.

00:27:16: difference.

00:27:16: what will be my role to achieve these goals.

00:27:20: I mean of course it's important when you are a global leader, more opportunities but i feel very comfortable being as a soldier as well and being as the leader as well unless uh the values and the work i'm doing makes me satisfied in terms of feeling that this is useful.

00:27:44: What do you think is sort of the one thing that your most proud about in your term as president?

00:27:49: Well, I'm very proud about The New Award which was my idea and it was Kindly supported by our Freedom to Publish Committee today.

00:28:02: We are not launching but we're giving them.

00:28:04: first award freedom of expression, Defender's Award which we hold FEDAT at Tuzerte in

00:28:11: global

00:28:12: stage.

00:28:12: And

00:28:12: who would receive it?

00:28:13: We will

00:28:14: tell you that!

00:28:16: Oh wow... It is too early

00:28:19: still because as I mentioned they had a Privolter award and some people were asking what the difference was.

00:28:27: but for me there are two awards.

00:28:33: in terms of privoltaire, we saw mostly that the publishers are suffering.

00:28:39: even publishers aren't alive anymore.

00:28:42: The ones who gave awards or are in jail.

00:28:46: so all these ceremonies were very sad.

00:28:49: and they're very sad because if you see the winners who are suffering then I had a feeling in this way, uh...in the publishers and industry.

00:29:01: This might feel that fighting for a film to publish it's all about being pressured of course but also suffering.

00:29:12: But where are the celebrations?

00:29:15: Well celebration is someone who isn't defeated Of course definitely sitting in the jail, maybe but still standing for The Freedom to Publish.

00:29:24: But on the other side I wanted with a new award show that fighting for freedom of expression and freedom to publish our everyday joke even if we don't face any specific difficulties nowadays because on the example of many countries, we can say that this could be changed in one moment.

00:29:47: We should not be unprepared for these changes.

00:29:51: so I wanted to celebrate those publishers who understand why it is important to do this everyday job in the publishing industry and fight for it.

00:30:00: And give good examples of others, so we want to highlight those example then ask publishers follow them bring these examples into their countries as well.

00:30:10: What I really hear from you both that what your doing with communities is becoming even more political maybe also on a surface not just underneath the surface where it maybe always was, but its about saying that out loud and also being difficult.

00:30:31: And celebrating the people who are doing

00:30:38: this is absolutely correct.

00:30:42: at the UN we just celebrated eighty years Anniversary and it was a really good occasion to go back to the UN Charter And to talk about the principles and values of the UN into remind The world not Not just the membership all hundred ninety three countries, but also the people Of the world that they have this united nations.

00:31:03: That says we're the peoples.

00:31:04: and then Also um universal declaration of human rights that all p-people are created in With rights and with dignity.

00:31:13: Um and then you know at Within all of this is that if you have these rights, then you have the right to express yourself and you have a freedom of information.

00:31:27: You have the Right To Access Information.

00:31:31: And I think These kind Of Fundamental Basic Rights need Reminding They Need Fighting For.

00:31:41: We Need To Build Coalitions Because There Are.

00:31:45: when you have a majority of governments who want to take away these rights, then it's up to the people.

00:31:52: To fight back.

00:31:53: and I think what one can see whether its in the form publishing books or it is in the forms journalism that uncovers truth-to-power and uncoves corruption Or It Is People Taking To The Streets.

00:32:09: People Have A Lot Of Power Individuals And Collectively I think what our information environment leaves people with the impression very often that they are alone.

00:32:20: The digital way of reading the news or scrolling makes you, gives you this sense maybe your part in a bigger community but actually you're very lonely and we have done.

00:32:36: looked at surveys recently whether it's around Climate change.

00:32:40: I'll give you the example of one around climate action.

00:32:44: Eighty nine percent of the world.

00:32:46: we did this survey with with Oxford University.

00:32:49: Eighty-nine percent of The World wants climate action and yet they believe that They're very much in the minority.

00:32:58: well, and then i think This goes for almost every issue people feel because the information environment is giving them the impression that these kinds of basic things, wanting a clean environment... ...is actually polarizing.

00:33:17: It's political—it's something we can say out loud….

00:33:20: …because we're afraid it will affect

00:33:23: heaven."

00:33:24: our community, when actually your community and your neighbor is actually for it.

00:33:28: So I think its on us to tell these stories To get people reading books Um...to get people motivated to revive the kind of taking back their own knowledge And rights.

00:33:43: It reminds me something that we discussed in a podcast leading up to The Fair Maybe the fact That We Feel so Alone Is That We Consume It Alone.

00:33:53: And now we see book clubs having a huge renaissance all around the world.

00:34:00: In

00:34:00: U.S.,

00:34:00: there was statistics that leading events platform in US saw third more book clubs than first half of this year, just on one platform people starting club signing upper-clubs.

00:34:12: You talk about collaboration you have are all over the world.

00:34:16: There's no silent ring party.

00:34:18: Many many big cities of people just come together and read.

00:34:22: And they don't do it alone

00:34:23: to lock up their phone.

00:34:24: They go in.

00:34:25: yeah, but that's maybe just a mention.

00:34:27: our at Grants have mentioned it briefly.

00:34:31: It's our STG book club which was I were.

00:34:36: we work together In Guadalajara.

00:34:38: yes at the booklet where we launched We launched the STG Book Club in Mexico.

00:34:44: My colleague just told me it is taking off, there are chapters all over Mexico.

00:34:49: I think it started in Brazil with your predecessor Karina launching and basically you just imagine going into a bookstore.

00:35:00: You're mother-with-your child or father And they'll be collection where There will be series of books about the sustainable development goals, they're not about them.

00:35:14: They have this.

00:35:15: themes like what is it like to live in poverty and maybe to overcome it?

00:35:20: or What does peace mean?

00:35:23: or what is it like to just have the ability to drink clean water?

00:35:30: All of these basic justice and rights, all of the wonderful things that are... The blueprint for a better world are contained.

00:35:37: And they're very inspiring to small children.

00:35:41: It allows this kind of global citizen education to spring up.

00:35:47: Fantastic!

00:35:48: and closing also for our conversation today because we wanted to really ask you, what gives you hope?

00:35:57: Maybe there's a certain initiative.

00:35:59: Maybe there was an interaction recently had.

00:36:01: maybe it is something big happening that he want to bring to our awareness.

00:36:05: where are saying well with all being awake at night And With all the fights every day and with the awards You're giving out Today To people That Are Really Struggling There Is Something In There I Want To Highlight.

00:36:17: That Really Gives Me Hope when I get up in the morning and i am part of this community.

00:36:23: so

00:36:24: well what gives me hope is people my colleagues, my friends ,my allies seeing that I'm not alone.

00:36:34: And they are not alone.

00:36:36: um...and ...I think Maria is our writing in her book, how to step into a dictator that what is the most important?

00:36:44: To find the license and build community.

00:36:47: because if we want to fight against something.

00:36:50: And you see from an almost book for instance autocracy or seeing that autoritarians are making these connections and they are acting as a community, we want to fight back.

00:37:04: We need to be united too.

00:37:07: And what gives me hope is definitely that there's people staying around with so many brave people who're ready for fighting back.

00:37:17: The CRs with IPA were a lot of stories meeting such people who amazed me with their braveness.

00:37:24: I said that while i'm also not living in good conditions because yeah we are all so independent every day protested, Georgian and part-of-that... And sometimes I feel but my life is going into big darkness when I face such big difficulties like you meet the people who live even worse in worst conditions, but they never give up.

00:37:55: They say that no this is my work I'm fighting these parties.

00:37:59: i don't see any reason to continue my work if i am not fighting back against and if i'm not preserving my values.

00:38:08: so there were so many names so many faces, so many role models for me off of this fight.

00:38:16: So yeah definitely I believe in people book people because as we said the squad from last night's opening.

00:38:26: Yeah this will change, we've seen during these centuries a lot of empires but still have those amazing fantastic books which inspires even people in the twenty-first century because The culture is permanent and we are serving to something which is eternal.

00:38:51: And so politics will change, the culture will have a big role in this.

00:38:58: Wow I got really emotional listening to you.

00:39:02: Thank You for saying all of these meeting people that amaze me with their braveness.

00:39:11: Melissa, what is something that gives you hope?

00:39:18: I would have said something very similar.

00:39:21: What gives me hope are the people i meet who have decided to dedicate their lives To making this world a better place and thinking maybe should rename my podcast heroes of humanity because i meet so many Who decided they could've gone into investment banking or been a corporate lawyer, and instead chose to work for the United Nations or to work with an ungovernmental organization.

00:39:48: Or go into the profession of journalism or writing non-fiction books going on front lines out there commenting fighting in face fighting autocracies and dictatorships potential imprisonment.

00:40:10: So these are people who, whether it is really heroic like those examples that Gewanza was just mentioning where you have your life on the line in some cases or its a decision to choose a profession and spend their whole lives serving others gives me hope.

00:40:35: I'm seeing more young making this decision.

00:40:39: There was this amazing book, Moral Ambition by the Dutch historian which has created a whole movement and academies trying to get young people going to elite universities not go in consulting but rather choose a career that's gonna change the world.

00:40:58: And I think there is an improvement direction.

00:41:02: as Gwansa said Who believe in a better world?

00:41:08: who believe in human rights and democracy?

00:41:10: And have the same values?

00:41:12: Then there are those who we're trying to destroy it, and we just need to come together.

00:41:17: Rutger Bregman.

00:41:17: I just looked at up more moral ambition very inspiring and i was Just thinking about The Hof which is happening today the platform, I have an honor to host and met all of you through because i'm allowed sit at this bonfire every now-and then.

00:41:37: Today we had the youngest board member of PEN International on stage.

00:41:42: he was twenty seven when joined.

00:41:46: He's from Turkey and lives in Berlin.

00:41:51: I look at them with their houses and their cars, it takes me so much longer.

00:42:00: In my early thirties now as still in my parents but i'm on this quest And I know that it takes a lot more sacrifice and patience what im doing.

00:42:09: But its also long lasting.

00:42:12: He's of course fighting for many young people to come into publishing.

00:42:16: There is lots barriers about some women specifically.

00:42:21: These are the younger peoples that i'm listening out to and I am so admiring, making me hopeful because in the beginning it's sacrifice.

00:42:35: You could take a job where you get paid in publishing.

00:42:39: your job ends at five.

00:42:44: but yeah, it doesn't have the same impact.

00:42:50: The people who dedicate their lives to making even tomorrow a little bit better than today.

00:42:56: I think that is as you said sort of the lasting impact.

00:42:59: It takes long But its more meaningful.

00:43:02: You can look back at your life and say i've done something.

00:43:10: And here's what That Is.

00:43:11: This is the first time we're doing this book.

00:43:13: Do you want to close with a book recommendation from our guests?

00:43:15: Is that too much to ask?

00:43:17: Yeah, are you all reading?

00:43:19: Anything on your nightstand talking about being awake at night instead of sleeping?

00:43:23: You can use moral

00:43:24: ambition

00:43:27: because I actually do have moral ambitions in my books stand Because i had so many young people also coming and asking for advice on what they should do with themselves.

00:43:39: I always say, well first of all read this book because it will inspire you.

00:43:43: um cause.

00:43:44: he gives examples of people who really change the world and just individual people who changed the world in incredible ways especially in the US.

00:43:55: like multi hundreds of thousands of dollars on your education wouldn't you want to apply that you know, to help people or to help our environment and our planet.

00:44:10: And one thing I say is it's just so gratifying!

00:44:15: It's SO gratifying...and you won't have this if making money sitting on a beach-it's nice but

00:44:27: only for a

00:44:29: day.

00:44:31: And is there a book that's on your nightstand or reader you want to remember?

00:44:36: Well, maybe I will mention the book.

00:44:39: I'm currently translating because i am translator as well time after time but... Just throwing

00:44:46: it in there!

00:44:47: That also adds to not say very much

00:44:49: Yeah exactly and this would be my first thing when I finish my presidency finished the book and it's Victoria Melina looking at war, a lot of women are looking for war.

00:45:05: She is an Ukrainian writer who was killed in the war.

00:45:09: she was a war investigator And uh...she was very actively involved.

00:45:17: We had a very emotional story about her because just one month before her death she arrived in Lillehammer to take the award for her friend, Volodymyr Vakulenko.

00:45:31: We gave him the Privolter Special Award and after one month I went to Kiev for the book fair Bukhar-Sennel .I met her ,and when i was on my way back home in the train... I found that she went in her key while she was under bombing and she died.

00:45:50: She lives

00:45:51: in that cafe, right?

00:45:53: Exactly!

00:45:53: That's

00:45:54: the story...she is fantastic.

00:45:56: so I feel like somehow partly my responsibility as well to speak about Victoria because she is among those brave people who are trying make this world.

00:46:09: So yeah, I'm working on her book which is very difficult because i have to go through her past and it's a difficult pass but we have to open our eyes.

00:46:19: We have to face this that this is happening around us And we need to read these books such as well.

00:46:25: of course not only maybe But we need two faces.

00:46:28: they really were living

00:46:30: Looking at women looking at war or war injustice diary by Victoria Amelina.

00:46:36: your recommendation your work right now.

00:46:39: Thank you, Gwansa!

00:46:40: I thank both for spending

00:46:44: the morning with us it's been such a great conversation and...

00:46:47: And

00:46:48: thank you all of the work that are doing in our world In our industry.

00:46:52: It is really

00:46:54: amazing.

00:46:54: What a great way to start today!

00:46:56: Indeed!

00:46:57: Very

00:46:58: honoured to have you on the books Melissa & Gwanza and hopefully not last time Have an great and brave and hopeful book fair.

00:47:08: Thank you so much,

00:47:11: same

00:47:12: to you.

00:47:13: And wait what is next Erin?

00:47:15: Who's here tomorrow?

00:47:24: Oh wow!

00:47:24: So we're diving into this medium audio.

00:47:27: We

00:47:29: hope that you tune in and will be live again on the books.

00:47:35: Thank you.