The future of connecting with readers – with Michael Tamblyn & Ralf Biesemeier | LIVE at #fbm26

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00:00:01: Welcome to On The Books, presented by Publishing Perspectives and Remote Daily.

00:00:06: On the books is the morning show.

00:00:07: it's early morning here in Frankfurt for the global publishing community.

00:00:11: live from Frankfurt Book Fair where on the third day meetings are starting at Hall four.

00:00:18: we see also today a general public rolling-in.

00:00:22: Aaron Sharp Insights Irrecessible Guests.

00:00:25: It has been such an honor to host OnTheBooks with you.

00:00:29: Good Morning.

00:00:29: I'm Felix

00:00:34: I'm Aaron Cox, publisher of Publishing Perspectives.

00:00:37: On the third day we get a little loosey-goosey over here.

00:00:40: so yeah this is our third day recording the podcast.

00:00:44: We're down one

00:00:46: mic.

00:00:46: So Michael and I are gonna be really chummy on this microphone.

00:00:50: Yeah were hosting two amazing people today who will talk to us about reading habits, how the publishing industry connects with readers.

00:00:59: They are the CEO of Rakuten Kobo Michael Tamlin.

00:01:01: good morning Michael!

00:01:03: Good morning.

00:01:03: thank you so much for having me and I can tell as we get to our third day kind of scraping the bottom of a barrel for guests.

00:01:22: You know, on the other side... On my site.

00:01:24: I should say it's a German site.

00:01:26: Consult former founder and CEO of REITBOX and most recently of Sibir Lucien Roth.

00:01:30: Good morning!

00:01:31: Hey good

00:01:32: morning!

00:01:33: Thanks for the invitation.

00:01:35: May i say?

00:01:35: I haven't had breakfast yet.

00:01:37: Oh wow!

00:01:38: So you know..I'm having my water so let see.

00:01:42: Well that is a minimal start into today.

00:01:44: Yeah well maybe don't have enough breakfast in your stomach but you're ready

00:01:49: to go.

00:01:49: I am all here.

00:01:50: Yeah,

00:01:52: ready to go.

00:01:53: Well

00:01:54: you know reading is such a fascinating topic Erin that your bringing into the studio today.

00:01:59: You have been curing this week.

00:02:00: Your on stage all of time.

00:02:02: Why did you want Michael and Ralph in the studio?

00:02:06: I've been on stage a number of times with Ralph.

00:02:09: iIve seen Michael speak, and you're both brilliant.

00:02:12: so...i want to pick your brains about various things.

00:02:17: no pressure but i think you also have an amazing view.

00:02:23: the ultimate mission that we have in publishing which is getting books into the hands of readers.

00:02:28: how do How do we get these stories that writers and publishers work so hard to produce?

00:02:35: how Do We Get Them To Readers And Build Out The Industry From There.

00:02:41: This year, we're seeing just So many reports about declines in reading around the world.

00:02:47: I think now more than ever...we need to hear from experts on where the readers are.

00:02:58: I wonder, like is it really a decline in reading or the readers don't know what to read and therefore they kind of are overwhelmed.

00:03:10: So if i as a journalist not publishing expert ask you this question we're at bar in frankfort at night.

00:03:18: What do say Michael?

00:03:22: There are two different indicators that I think pull people in different ways.

00:03:27: One is you look at the sales side, and you see unit sales for books kind of flat to a little bit growing.

00:03:37: That generally suggests that people are buying as many books as they used to And so if you're looking at it from the commercial side You know that gives you a certain amount of comfort?

00:03:51: what we see when, try to pull that apart a bit though is.

00:03:57: That we've gotten really good at selling books to people who are enthusiastic readers and you have the... We got into taking person buys up book-a-week and getting them buy like an extra book of month And At this same time What were losing?

00:04:16: Are those people who would consider casual readers?

00:04:19: Like were loosing?

00:04:19: the persons bought A book a year or two books.

00:04:24: So that person who Bought a book because they were going to get on a plane and That was the only thing you could do for five hours on a plain.

00:04:33: Now there is seatback video.

00:04:35: now You have Wi-Fi in the plane like that person Who used to buy one book?

00:04:39: And take it to the beach isn't?

00:04:41: I'm scrolling at Beach hmm, and so we're losing i think casual readers off of one end of the consumption spectrum, at the same time as we're supercharging on the other hand.

00:04:55: We are turning young people into book collectors and even more enthusiastic readers.

00:05:03: And that's been balancing everything out but it is certainly not the composition or population that was a twenty years ago

00:05:12: Interesting.

00:05:12: Ralph, anything to add from you?

00:05:14: Well

00:05:14: actually I couldn't agree more.

00:05:15: You know the point is we're losing readers right?

00:05:25: um i think The biggest problem Is that We are losing people who don't even Know there could be bookreaders.

00:05:30: so we need To develop them into Bookreaders and That's why were losing customers in book trade online or offline.

00:05:41: Like you look at the German market and like in the last decade, we lost a third of book buyers where we sell books.

00:05:48: Right?

00:05:49: And I'm always comparing my mother with my kids.

00:05:52: that comparison because i always bring them.

00:05:55: My mother is eighty seven now um...and she's always bought books because it's books.

00:06:00: She went into bookstore to buy a book.

00:06:04: Sorry!

00:06:05: My kids don't do that anymore, because there's a whole lot more options they can choose from.

00:06:11: Like if it's TikTok Instagram websites whatever it might be.

00:06:16: so let spend less time on thinking about what media and that data... And its becoming shorter format also right?

00:06:24: So the book is always like you need time when you need focus!

00:06:30: That's an issue I'm always thinking about marketing side of things because, you know that's why I studied too.

00:06:40: It is always about a marketing mix combination like what product in which format to what channel at what time toward kind of target group and price.

00:06:49: there are tons combinations we can now create from it where the readers are and think from outside in rather than product out.

00:07:00: In this industry, my feeling is that we're still thinking of products first always.

00:07:07: I don't think it's right way to do it.

00:07:09: You should think about customer and meet them.

00:07:14: What can be relevance you create at a certain time?

00:07:20: To reach readers then convert them into buyers?

00:07:23: Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:24: I think that's something a consistent failing in our industry...I teach a marketing week at a publishing program and i always say start with the reader.

00:07:32: so we assign books to all of students an older audience because it's military history, and that is what they tend to read.

00:07:46: Is a younger audience because of this romanticity?

00:07:48: And think about who the reader is or where they are – what social media platforms there on

00:07:56: etc.,

00:07:57: all those things….

00:07:59: Most publishers sit down with lots value in their back lists.

00:08:04: You look at evolution.

00:08:06: I worked like three years audiobook industry.

00:08:11: And you see what happens, like most of the sales come really from the backlist because it's new for customers on Spotify right?

00:08:20: They stumble across and its new!

00:08:22: It might be ten years old but it is new to them.

00:08:25: so look at your back list and see what can do in terms of bringing into modern age.

00:08:32: maybe serializing isn't a matter Again, I think it's always a combination of marketing mix issues.

00:08:41: So things from the customer rather than book out.

00:08:44: Well and i think this is something talking about sort reading or readers And also talking about your mother.

00:08:51: This opens up an opportunity for us to talk about Something that you know close to your heart Michael.

00:08:58: I feel like we are always, our industry is going after the next generation of readers.

00:09:03: How do you get that younger generation?

00:09:05: We're sort of leaving out a pretty key important group of people.

00:09:09: so I know that Rakuten Kobo recently co-produced her report through The Lens Of Longevity Publishing In The Silver Economy which highlights the importance

00:09:26: Data that we were seeing in our own customer base, and I think you know when your a When you're an e-reading platform?

00:09:33: When your technology focus service Your assumption is that you are looking at technology early adopters.

00:09:39: You're looking at yo people That Are gravitating towards it because it's something new And that certainly been the case for the other kinds of Media that have moved through a digital transformation.

00:09:54: That was the case for music, it's been a case of video.

00:09:57: And so when we started to look at customer data in e-books and e-reading We found something that looked completely different—we were looking at the first transformation from analog to digital that wasn't being driven by eighteen to twenty five year olds.

00:10:12: It was being driven with fifty years old, sixty or seven year olds Initially, especially more customers in that range than we were getting in like teens twenty thirties.

00:10:26: And as we dug into that way We started to see two things you know.

00:10:31: one was it's an incredibly valuable demographic for readers which I think everybody and publishing is aware of but at the same time they were drawn What I would call like accessibility or accessibility adjacent, you know anyone who's hit fifty and gotten their first pair of bifocals Or any one whose y'all had to make your transition to reading glasses.

00:10:51: You know knows that

00:10:52: don't age yourself.

00:10:56: Listen trifocals baby So the So the idea of being able to make a font bigger, that feels like it has small print and turn into whatever size or print you want is gateway for people.

00:11:19: And then as get older benefits just compound.

00:11:26: so if have mobility issues not having if you lose grip strength or hand strength, having something that's light as opposed to something that is heavy.

00:11:38: All of these things make it really attractive for people who get older.

00:11:42: but so this was how we got interested.

00:11:46: what got us digging into the study of that demographic?

00:11:52: Was there a shift in population going on especially Europe in some of our other markets that were really active and like Japan also now, you know very much becoming the case.

00:12:07: In North America where we have an aging population And Where We Have This Big Swing Of?

00:12:14: Not Just Population But Like Book Reading book Purchasing Population Into Fifty Sixty Seventies Like The Boomers Are Getting Older They are and they're Kind of Moving into Those You Know Or Well and Scotsed in those Years and they are this incredibly valuable book purchasing population, I think to what you were saying about your mother.

00:12:36: Like these are the people who have habitually bought books that powered the industry for years.

00:12:43: And yet as we're talking to publishers We weren't seeing any strategy around.

00:12:50: how Are we managing?

00:12:52: This demographic transition?

00:12:54: aside from Are we doing everything?

00:12:56: We can't try to grab our arms around teens and you know, and twenty-somethings.

00:13:02: And get them reading as much as we can but not thinking about... As someone gets older or they move through some of these transitions at age.

00:13:13: are we keeping

00:13:14: them?".

00:13:15: And would see that there's drop offs happen when people moved though certain phases like if you've gotten your reading glasses, or whatever and the print in your print book still feels too small.

00:13:30: If you haven't made that transition to digital You start just decide not to read anymore.

00:13:35: Wow And um...and you get lost into industry as a consumer phase, but you have macular degeneration and your cataract issues.

00:13:50: And you don't make the transition to audiobooks or we lose you again.

00:13:53: so We're taking the most valuable cohort that in some ways The book industry has ever had That kind of post-war boomer frequent purchasing customer and were just kinda hoping they stick with us starting To get more proactive about how do we make sure people Make it through these gates?

00:14:15: as opposed to just hoping they'll figure it out themselves, starts to become a priority for the industry.

00:14:20: And some of what we're talking about before is how do you keep that infrequent purchase or purchasing?

00:14:25: How do you get that infraquant reader reading and take these most valuable readers and move them through life transitions so they can stay like really lifelong readers?

00:14:45: what's happening?

00:14:46: What will happen next, right.

00:14:48: I mean look at now and i think what Mike just said is of course you know a hundred percent agreed but then as this age group gets older... And you know I'm pretty much in that target group right now being fifty-five by focus and stuff.

00:15:07: You know..I was pretty much socialized with books still when I started my studies, you know?

00:15:16: I had to buy books and not go YouTube.

00:15:21: Again next generation.

00:15:23: it's a socializing issue because they are growing up in totally different media world.

00:15:29: how can we make sure... And if i talk about books don't necessarily mean printed paper It is the content industry.

00:15:36: How could bring that content into those target groups?

00:15:39: Target group might be an age group or whatever.

00:15:45: I think it's important to strategically think about that.

00:15:48: And for the publishers, again, to think about... It is pretty much a relevance issue in terms of what kind of story do i have to bring about?

00:15:59: where and when?

00:16:00: To whom?

00:16:02: To actually show readers they are bookreaders but there can be bookreads!

00:16:12: content-wise and format wise.

00:16:17: That's attractive to buy and use, you know wherever they are.

00:16:22: So it's a channel issue.

00:16:23: It's again the format issues.

00:16:26: What I hear is from getting into some of this for first time There's there's a lack thinking about customer journey And reading where in a lot of other industries you think about our journey and the customer that comes In and then stays with it, and eventually transitions to something there seems To be like

00:16:42: proofing the business.

00:16:43: Yeah

00:16:45: It's interesting sometimes I think if we look at other Industries You know i have friend who works in marketing at Dyson?

00:16:51: And you know when you look At their digital digital marketing programs and spending and Look at

00:16:59: And their products cost a little more than the book.

00:17:01: Yeah,

00:17:01: return on investment right?

00:17:02: You know like as a publisher you send out a newsletter.

00:17:05: Right Dyson sends other newsletters and they have to make whatever.

00:17:10: five million euros of revenue from the newsletter.

00:17:13: That's that's target.

00:17:15: So it's different kind of business.

00:17:19: I always wonder we're still in this bubble industry.

00:17:25: so again if I think business more than product.

00:17:29: But is there a Dyson in publishing?

00:17:31: Do you see examples of certain publishers or even other companies, or agencies doing it in the way where you say that's what the future is?

00:17:42: There are initiatives and they've always been published as I think who have been on forefront thinking stuff like if we look at... From my perspective, look at HarperCollins for example.

00:17:56: I've always thought like HarperCollin's has a different bit of a different view on things in certain regions and areas...I know them well because i have worked with him for twenty years or so.

00:18:09: but you know as an industry it is the whole thing would have to develop more into a funnel-based business thinking rather than product, selling to the whole seller.

00:18:24: Selling to an end customer and you know...

00:18:27: But could individual publishers do that?

00:18:29: or is it on sort of like people who have platforms?

00:18:36: Who can help drive this?

00:18:38: I mean i think That's something that you all are looking at too at Rakuten.

00:18:42: Yeah

00:18:43: what's interesting about this industry?

00:18:45: Is there a bit of division of labour between Publishers in work they're doing Of finding authors developing authors figuring out who, where there are audiences for particular stories or particular pieces of information.

00:19:02: And then retailers were trying to close that gap between the content and you know in the end customer.

00:19:12: There's a reason that division of labor exists because the economics going after and targeting an individual are not really something that publishers they're well set up for.

00:19:25: And anytime we see them do it, like if goes really badly... When we see publishers go direct to consumer and their'e smart people but its a whole different set of reflexes and tactics And kind of economics behind it to To pull somebody in.

00:19:54: and I think one of the One of the challenges that publishers have is you know Publishers are all about this book.

00:20:01: I've got this book, I'm trying to find an audience for It.

00:20:03: iIm good like what do I have to do to bring people?

00:20:06: You know in but really they're not in The bringing People In business.

00:20:10: They were in a pushing Book out there.

00:20:11: yeah exactly.

00:20:12: and then Folks Like Us and Other Books Sellers and Everybody Else Have the Advantage Of A huge stream of customers going through where we can try to match up a customer with the book from the river of customers that are flowing past us, which has its own inefficiencies.

00:20:32: But at least we've got people coming through where publishers who try to go DTC end up having problems as like getting a customer through the door is really expensive.

00:20:42: Getting a customer though their doors are really hard and generating demand for an individual title from nothing, it's really hard but matching of customer with book something that retailer could do more efficiency.

00:20:56: so yeah its good thing.

00:20:58: we have both retailers in the industry because were also not going out finding authors Wrap books around the meeting.

00:21:04: So like so that's good, but it you know I want to pick up on On something that you were talking about earlier.

00:21:12: when it comes to that That idea of Like where does them?

00:21:17: Like Where should publishers be focusing their marketing and how should they be trying to develop audiences?

00:21:25: because It does feel like that a part of the publishing practice being figured out for this decade right now.

00:21:35: You know, you can't just kind of put up billboards at the metro station and hope that people are going to figure out who that book is anymore.

00:21:47: but there isn't the next thing beyond that aside from either publishers trying push books into TikTok shape boxes, or try to pull TikTok in two books and hope that audience comes along with it.

00:22:03: And so I feel like we haven't found the next marketing vocabulary That's true towards what it is we're actually trying to sell

00:22:09: right?

00:22:09: So where at a stage were probably become easier than ever before because of course its data analysis thing it's about signals and seeing opportunities, uncovering opportunities.

00:22:22: I talked to my backlist like look at your portfolio and uncover the opportunities that are there in combination with looking at the market and seeing trends... Well i wanted say one thing because you said putting a bilbit on hope how people see.

00:22:41: Once I learned from a consultant, hope is not strategy.

00:22:47: What?

00:22:48: Publisher?

00:22:49: That's all the time we have today!

00:22:51: Yeah i know where are.

00:22:53: We thought it might fit here.

00:22:55: So It's about creating knowledge From data that around you and AI can actually help You a lot on covering how you say, uncovering signals.

00:23:12: Yeah your patterns right?

00:23:14: That show that for example look at metadata things we get as a distributor.

00:23:20: We got one set of meta data per book.

00:23:21: There's this.

00:23:23: there is one book group whatever.

00:23:26: Now we have different retailers in the different target groups with every retailer and what we found out For example In current project I'm managing If you look at the most successful books on each retailer's channel, You can see patterns in a way that for example book clubs are written.

00:23:50: Is it more mobile first community?

00:23:52: Or is it an audio-first community or whatever?

00:23:57: An age group older and younger react to different things.

00:24:01: so if we just send out one set of metadata you lose out on the whatever.

00:24:07: It might be only five percent, but it's five percent.

00:24:10: so being more individual learn about how users on Spotify react?

00:24:16: How uses on Bookbeat react and Audubon react wherever.

00:24:20: or on Kobo And I think this knowledge has to in the publishers database.

00:24:28: That is a problem because they usually don't have it.

00:24:31: So we need some sort of like a channel back to them, um...to give them that data and-and give them the opportunity learn from what's happening because then they can look at their own portfolio say well does this series live up its potential?

00:24:49: if I know of the potential right?

00:24:50: That is where it starts.

00:24:51: So more data sharing between publishers & distributors or distributors & publishers?

00:24:58: Yeah,

00:25:00: well I think that's one thing.

00:25:04: We do a lot of things like we take whatever data we can get from retailers and we are scraping websites basically looking at Instagram posts or whatever to see trends what is converting?

00:25:17: well?

00:25:18: And if it talks channels its not necessarily all retail channels.

00:25:21: It could be something else, tiktok, website.

00:25:25: but i have in all those channels with the right messaging, like to make my potential readers read us.

00:25:35: In those whatever four seconds they have left in their brain before they scrolled into next post?

00:25:41: I

00:25:42: mean i've only published two books.

00:25:43: it's a very small data set for me but I never had any sort of feeling as an author that there was any sort access to data and general knowledge I got from other authors was selling the book is harder than writing it because you're out there on your own and You're probably not gonna succeed.

00:26:03: And

00:26:03: nobody really

00:26:05: know what he really cares, so It's

00:26:12: either looking at the experience of traditionally published authors and you independently published authors.

00:26:18: those Those experiences used to be very far apart.

00:26:22: You know, there was the idea that you would sign up at their traditional publisher and they'd kind of layer all these services around you And I would take care of you when it would find your audience for.

00:26:29: And on the other side, you had independent published authors where you were really a publisher of one.

00:26:40: You were doing all of the things that a publisher is supposed to be doing from marketing to sales to your audience engagement and promotion and editing design and everything

00:26:50: else.".

00:26:51: And...you would think as self-publishing became more prominent—as it started getting larger share in total sales—that publishers are going Whoa, okay.

00:27:04: We really need to step up our game and make sure that we're differentiating ourselves as people get access to more global channels of distribution they can do with themselves And instead the converging like you.

00:27:15: now You know People close to me have published books Like yourself?

00:27:21: And these sort of sit down with a publisher in the publisher hands them a list and says Okay go build your blog Get your Instagram going get your mailing lists going.

00:27:28: look and they were kind of I did the book, this was your stuff and they're like no.

00:27:37: And for an author who is trying to weigh these two options it's okay.

00:27:46: so why have to do all of this anyway?

00:27:49: You are a set very competent editorial services design kind of retail distribution, this gap feels smaller to me than it used to be.

00:28:04: And that's why we're seeing more people flipping back and forth.

00:28:09: It does go both ways in the sense that authors are moving from digital-only into print but only getting a slice of those publishing services not taking the whole package—and vice versa—but its starting to disaggregate what Yeah, what it means to be an author and the publisher.

00:28:30: One of the things that pulls people into That independent publishing world is there is more information that comes back.

00:28:38: you do have a better sense where your books are selling?

00:28:40: You can see day by day.

00:28:42: I ran this ad or I hit send on my mailing list And i'm seeing The behavior that's coming from that.

00:28:49: i'm Seeing either unit sales happening Or i am seeing like pages or minutes Happening in a subscription service And as a result, I am much more finely tuned to the behaviors that drive sales.

00:29:06: That's happening part of it because if you're an author and really care about this book so in the weeds on data is hard for a publisher Their lifespan of how do I you know, I've published this a year ago.

00:29:24: How do I reinvigorate it?

00:29:26: And how to bring it back up?

00:29:27: Whereas for traditional publisher It's like front-list and we move on Like that.

00:29:32: yeah with the train.

00:29:33: Yeah The train is going and after your six month window listen We got other times to deal with you.

00:29:40: good luck.

00:29:40: Which which leads me so provocative question aren't there too many books That are being published?

00:29:45: because if publishers would go, you know It's just a question to two of you now, but it's obviously much larger.

00:29:51: But what do you think?

00:29:52: Like

00:29:52: people say that all the time is like What does that even mean?

00:29:56: You're supposed to get one year.

00:29:57: That's right for you.

00:30:00: There have always been More books than any person could be In a decent sized independent bookstore.

00:30:09: there are more books and you can read in your lifetime.

00:30:11: So okay yeah from that perspective like more then fifty thousand books is too many.

00:30:16: what's the right one for you?

00:30:17: What is it that you need now, with a story to grab and pull into new field of information or storytelling.

00:30:26: That's the richness we're trying... But as were looking at AI world where on receiving end just mountain machine generated text That's like a compounded problem of okay, we had everything that humans working really hard could crank out in year.

00:30:53: Let's like hundred X that and just like dump all of that into the system as well.

00:30:59: for us As our retailer it remains a curatorial challenge.

00:31:06: And then some ways amps up The value of a retailer because you're really having to filter through the mass Of stuff that is out there.

00:31:18: it puts at much greater.

00:31:21: It's a much greater technical challenge in the sense.

00:31:23: You actually have to figure out What's worth putting in front somebody and what isn't?

00:31:28: in a way that was easy to do when a publisher handed you a catalog and circled the book.

00:31:31: And said, this is our favorite book.

00:31:35: now it's like here are a million books?

00:31:37: Like some of these are good at the rest of them we don't have.

00:31:39: so curation as

00:31:41: I think he becomes more of a thing.

00:31:43: i think We end up using A lot Of These tools That Are At The Same Time Generating The Stuff That We're Trying To Handle To Make It Easier For People To Find The Things They Actually Want.

00:31:54: Yeah, that's what it boils down to right at the end of day.

00:31:57: I mean curation.

00:32:00: but then again The question whose job is it?

00:32:03: Right It's certainly your job on a platform side Yes To serve your customers.

00:32:09: But at the same time you know if i was publisher I would be very interested too learn about how can I create Again create relevance where the book assault and How Can I help retellers?

00:32:23: to find the right readers.

00:32:24: because, you know at the end of day it's not just a matter how many books are published.

00:32:29: It is just a lot of noise out there!

00:32:31: Right?

00:32:32: Its social media its music whatever it is so much noise and with AI...it isn't going change to be better..its gonna go up.

00:32:44: You look at Music Like seventy five thousand new titles every day, you know adding up to what's already there and half of it is AI already.

00:32:53: So I mean It's just a lot of noise.

00:32:56: And that's why people can only concentrate like four seconds, ten seconds on this one thing.

00:33:01: Right?

00:33:02: So that's a challenge in itself.

00:33:03: I mean yesterday and the studio talked about audio as a gateway drug sort of for book readers because it's now becoming much easier For people in different languages and local markets to access stories through audio.

00:33:16: is that something That makes you optimistic?

00:33:18: i'm i mean i see i See audio and text as like their adjacencies To yo.

00:33:26: they're adjacent to each other In terms of either how you take in a story or, y'know?

00:33:31: How do choose to bring in information.

00:33:33: What I look at is available time-in the day and audio in so many ways is allowing us to claim time that might get lost.

00:33:45: other mediums.

00:33:48: it's not necessarily an adversarial thing.

00:33:50: i love music but when we are fighting for time, for long form engagement.

00:34:00: Audio is one of the great ways we have to do that.

00:34:03: and there's a bit of cultural piece too because you've got some countries who are just neck deep in audiobooks all day-long... Hello

00:34:12: dear Germans!

00:34:14: And even with all the supply platforms and marketing and focus it seems like we're kind.

00:34:23: You know culture rather than a book listening culture Francis like that.

00:34:27: Like Francis all text all day long and And not for lack of trying by all the different platforms have been in there, but it is When we're talking about populations and audiences.

00:34:41: as much as you know There are marketing challenges their data challenges and everything else.

00:34:46: like we are fighting for Long-form consumption.

00:34:51: It's and that's why I say like it's not about Trying to publish into a tiktok shape box.

00:34:58: It's about how do you create the emotional engagement?

00:35:04: And the attachment for syncing into a book Escaping into a story digging deep into yo, a piece of nonfiction and have that feel like a relevant meaningful thing?

00:35:19: because That's where this whole industry lives.

00:35:24: And if we step outside of that and try to do something else, then were in the world of commoditized attention.

00:35:34: Yes, we are fighting for a tension but we're trying keep it at very different shape I think than other people who are trying to commoditize our

00:35:42: art.

00:35:42: So what i learned here Erin is there needs more data sharing?

00:35:48: There is a call for better curation, I think.

00:35:53: And maybe what Michael just said there's even a Call to Action For Publishers To Help Us Focus more in the future?

00:36:00: Because we are sort of the next fifty-five plus generation.

00:36:04: so... Yes

00:36:05: that's right!

00:36:05: We're

00:36:05: sitting here and being like hey

00:36:06: it's us!

00:36:07: We were just on edge at fifty five.

00:36:09: yes this is now too yeah And I think we need to, as an industry, think about the reader.

00:36:15: That sort of goes to Michael's point just now where readers are inundated with information and content.

00:36:23: their attention spans or terrible... There is too much-too-much!

00:36:28: So when you're thinking how do we reach them?

00:36:30: How do we engage them?

00:36:32: We have to think about cut through all that that time with a story they will love.

00:36:47: What was being said about marketing and finding audiences, what we know is the safest place for consumer to be in an attention fragmented world inside of book whether it's paper or there are reasons why we make e-readers.

00:37:05: just do one thing because aren't alerts coming at you, and there are notifications from your boss.

00:37:15: You get to be in the story... In some ways that work of publishers itself make that experience

00:37:23: attractive

00:37:24: and exciting to being.

00:37:27: so we can get you into it as long as not getting pulled other places!

00:37:32: As long as they pull us back then we earn our time.

00:37:36: We get to earn that piece of attention.

00:37:39: The beauty of the medium, that beauty of novels and works-of nonfiction is when they are well written.

00:37:50: They do sustain their attention.

00:37:54: We don't have a problem getting young readers hooked on really interesting works in fiction keeping people who are thinly attached to reading, if we can get somebody like read a book a week when they're fourteen years old.

00:38:11: We'll generally keep them!

00:38:13: Like you don't lose someone off the side of that.

00:38:18: and then it gets to this transition point where I say do i read for pleasure or not?

00:38:25: You know,

00:38:28: I'd agree to that but i challenged it at the same time.

00:38:34: Because... That's only one usage scenario.

00:38:39: in a way because we talk about fiction here and nonfiction consumption is probably different.

00:38:45: you look at all this micro drama thing which has become huge industry really a lot of revenue being made there.

00:38:57: And again, it's about context.

00:39:00: where do I meet the reader or the listener and at what time can I bring him?

00:39:06: What kind of content in what format?

00:39:08: to fulfill his requirement always needs that very moment It might be.

00:39:13: just look at micro dramas were one piece of series is only one-and-a-half minutes long totally different form of content, which didn't exist like two years ago or three years ago.

00:39:32: So again it's a matter of target group and context relevance in the equation I always have my mind is you create reach plus relevance.

00:39:42: that equals conversion.

00:39:43: And i'm thinking backwards from...I want to convert people To buy books and read books right?

00:39:49: Or listen to audiobooks whatever?

00:39:51: Well, lots of food for thought in today's episode.

00:39:56: Yes!

00:39:57: My brain is just exploding grain emoji

00:40:00: because

00:40:01: also as an author I'm now like...I should really you know think about the reader first before even sit down and write any letter off that book.

00:40:08: And maybe there was a micro-drama Before The Book Even Drops or the other way around.

00:40:12: then again

00:40:20: data, publishers are going to be able find this particular customer and build a book around it.

00:40:27: Mostly doesn't work like that!

00:40:29: And you wouldn't want it too... That in a way is the challenge we see with all of our content coming from AI….

00:40:37: It's the average for everything I've worked on before.

00:40:42: What will differentiate creative output?

00:40:45: The thing that doesn't feel like the thing you've already seen and always has.

00:40:50: Like this is not new, but it's your job as an author to find a next way to tell this story As opposed to trying to find the way That You Think Is Going To Bessute A Particular Group Of People.

00:41:06: You are about to go on stage Aaron.

00:41:08: Is that right?

00:41:09: Yes

00:41:10: We usually

00:41:12: we could talk about this for an hour or two,

00:41:15: but yeah

00:41:16: Usually don't leave our guests without asking for.

00:41:18: last question Which is your latest book did you discovered or do you want a

00:41:22: give out highlight?

00:41:24: oh I'm really happy with this one because yesterday, as I was sitting in the Penguin Random House booth here at Frankfurt Book Fair.

00:41:34: They got the word that Ann Carson won The Nobel Prize.

00:41:37: and so Canadian poet not always an easy poet incredibly innovative like amazing work.

00:41:45: And i've followed her stuff going all the way back to our first book Short Talks Wow Autobiography of Red All Of Things That Have Came Since.

00:41:53: So dive into her work because it's fantastic.

00:41:57: Almost a national holiday, yes.

00:41:59: Congratulations

00:42:00: Michael!

00:42:02: Ralph?

00:42:04: I can only give you the German title of this book but its called Moment ist alles gut Which relates to me because I have had an accident like two months ago and it just showed Me that you know your plans can change from one second to the other really?

00:42:22: And i'm happy to sit here.

00:42:24: You, know It's great.

00:42:25: I am feeling well but you Know Live The Moment.

00:42:29: That Would Be My Recommendation.

00:42:32: Good One for Frank For Two Thank You i'm Felix Seltner

00:42:35: i'm erin cox

00:42:36: and this was on the books.

00:42:37: erin.

00:42:37: what's next?

00:42:38: Well post book fair interviews.

00:42:42: We'll report back on that soon, all

00:42:44: right?

00:42:45: Thank you very

00:42:46: much thank you so.